How to Disagree

In this episode, Kiana and Brian Hill discuss how to disagree and remain in relationship. In a polarized culture and world, how do engage in difficult and emotional conversations around hot topics without getting flooded and damaging the relationship. How do we follow the way of Jesus and become peacemakers in our relationships?

Brian has been in church ministry for over 30 years, and his current role is easily his favorite. Brian is the Justice Pastor for Oakhouse Church in Mission Viejo, CA, He connects the people of Oakhouse to God’s heart for vulnerable and marginalized groups by creating opportunities to love, serve, and learn from these communities. 
He’s also passionate about peacemaking across divides and creates spaces for dialogue that moves to mutuality, respect, and hopefully action. When not pursuing justice, Brian will probably be at Disneyland with his wife and daughter. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:04

Hi, welcome to the Fragrance Podcast. I'm Kiana Maxson, and Fragrance is a ministry that seeks to create safe spaces for women to be filled with the Holy Spirit. Whether it's a retreat, inner healing and deliverance prayer, a Bible study, a fun worship night, or our monthly event like morning routine, which is our workout and worship event, fragrance longs to see women known by the Father, stepping into deeper intimacy with Jesus and filled by the Holy Spirit. And now we have the Fragrance podcast. And I'm so excited to be here today. Season one is how to live as exiles in an empire. How do we, as citizens of the kingdom of God, live in an empire that is in direct opposition to the kingdom of God? And today I have my good friend Brian Hill on. He is the justice pastor at Oak House Church, and we are going to be talking about how to disagree. How do we live in a polarizing culture? How do we walk in forgiveness? How do we live out the Sermon on the Mount? What does Jesus have to say about all of these things? And I truly can't wait. So buckle up. Here we go. Hi, Brian.

SPEAKER_07 1:02

Hey.

SPEAKER_00 1:03

I'm so excited to have you today.

SPEAKER_07 1:05

Thanks for having me. This is so much fun.

SPEAKER_00 1:07

This is so much fun. So we've known each other for long time. Over a decade.

SPEAKER_07 1:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:11

Because I started at Rock Harbor when I was 17. Wow. I know. And now I'm 30. Almost 31. That's amazing. I know I'm a grown-up. Um, and you have always been someone I've just admired and truly loved and just an incredible pastor. And so I am truly honored to have you here today.

SPEAKER_07 1:29

Thanks. It's an honor to be here, seriously.

SPEAKER_00 1:32

And I, one of the reasons I wanted to start this podcast is I was sharing with you is I have the honor and privilege of sitting down with so many amazing wise people and pastors, you being one of them. And so often I'm in the middle of a conversation or leaving a conversation, being like, dang it, I wish I could have hit record. And I wish I could share that wisdom with everyone I know. And so that is one of the reasons I'm so excited about this podcast is I get to bring in all the wise people in my life and just pick their brain and say, please share all your wisdom with all of us.

SPEAKER_07 2:04

Okay, well we'll see what we can get done.

SPEAKER_00 2:06

So let's roll. So, first of all, you give us a little bit of background on Oak House, on what your role is, because when I tell people, oh yeah, but my friend Brian, he's the justice pastor at Oak House. Like I told my sister the other day, she goes, That's the coolest title I've ever heard in my life. I'm like, I know, and he's the coolest guy. So please share why the justice pastor, what is it you love about Oak House?

SPEAKER_07 2:29

Yeah. So Oak House has been around for three and a half years. We launched out of Rock Harbor where we were together, and our community has been together, I guess about 16 years now. Um, so we were the South County campus, and we had our whole crew with us and all that in about three and a half years. Um it felt like it was time to step out. And so we had an amazing uh stepping out away from Rock Harbor, like we got blessed out. And so I feel like as far as those things can go, right? Um this one went really well.

SPEAKER_06 2:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 2:59

And so, so yeah, so we have our same staff, our same community that's been together for a really long time. And um yeah, it's been a lot of fun to be us in the full expression. Yeah, I feel like we had lots of runway and to be able to do so many things with Rock Harbour, but I mean, you know, it's just when you get your when you get your full voice, yeah, it just gets to be, it gets to be something a little bit different.

SPEAKER_00 3:22

Yeah. And so it is true, like even when you're working under someone or interning under someone, or it's like the second that person's not there, whether it was good or bad, right? You just get to spread your wings.

SPEAKER_07 3:33

That's it, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:33

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 3:34

And Tan I, um, our lead pastor, have we talked about it, and I think the way that I've been saying it is um we get to be the fullest expression of us. And so, yeah, it's just been so much fun.

SPEAKER_04 3:45

So good.

SPEAKER_07 3:45

And one of the things when we started was we wanted to make sure that we were being the full expression of ourself in all areas. One of the things that had been true of our community, literally since we started, was justice causes. And we didn't call it that at that point, but in in what I was doing kind of as a side hustle for a long time, because I was um over discipleship and prayer and all that stuff, and then I moved in the executive role uh for a little while to get us launched into Oak House, and then after we were kind of settled, I was like, okay, I want to do something else. I really care about HR. Yeah, and so yeah, and so that's when um Chen and I started talking and just going, okay, you've cared about justice the whole time you've been here and you've done so much stuff with it. Why don't we just make it your job?

SPEAKER_05 4:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 4:35

So I got to write my own job description.

SPEAKER_05 4:38

I love that.

SPEAKER_07 4:38

And um, yeah, and just basically get to do the thing that makes my heart move.

SPEAKER_05 4:43

Yep.

SPEAKER_07 4:43

And so, yeah, when I tell people I'm the justice pastor, immediately they're like, I've never heard of one of those. What do you do?

SPEAKER_04 4:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 4:49

And I'm like, well, it's missions plus. And so all the things that you would think about as far as like a typical missions pastor or whatever, uh, I think I do most of those things. But then we have specific local partnerships where we really are trying to be in the community and bring about the kingdom of God in the community. And that is really what we see as justice. And and then I'm also doing some peacemaking stuff, which I think we'll probably get into in a little bit. Yes. Uh that really is all about bringing about the kingdom of God and seeing it done through justice. Um when we framed out what justice looks like, there's a couple of Hebrew words specifically where God would say, I'm the God of justice, or I want you to be people of justice for marginalized groups, for orphans, for widows, for the poor, for the foreigner, for all these different groups and others. And there's two words that are used all throughout the Old Testament. One is the typical justice that you think, like courtroom, you know, if you if you do a bad thing, then you're gonna pay the penalty. But the other one has to do with actually bringing about flourishing.

SPEAKER_04 5:59

Wow.

SPEAKER_07 6:00

And so the way that I've heard the two words described is we can either make someone pay or we can make them whole. Yeah. And so 20% of the time in the Old Testament, when justice is used, it's used in that courtroom way of make them pay.

SPEAKER_06 6:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 6:16

But 80% of the time, when God refers to himself as a God of justice, when he's asking his people, showcase what I'm like to the rest of the world by doing justice, it's this idea of making people whole.

SPEAKER_05 6:29

Wow.

SPEAKER_07 6:29

And so that's really what I've taken into the role to go specifically in our city, specifically in our region, but then also nationally, globally, um, in all these different spaces, how can we be instruments of bringing about flourishing, bringing about wholeness and shalom inside our community?

SPEAKER_00 6:48

Wow.

SPEAKER_07 6:48

So that's what I get to do.

SPEAKER_00 6:49

Wow, so good. Yeah. Once again, coolest job ever.

SPEAKER_07 6:53

It it actually I love it so much.

SPEAKER_00 6:56

Oh, that's so good. Wow. So one of the things that you do at Oak House is called the merge.

SPEAKER_07 7:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:01

And I have been so inspired by it. Would you share about the merge?

SPEAKER_07 7:05

Yeah. So um we started, I guess, during the election cycle in 2016. So everything's kind of heating up, there's a lot going on.

SPEAKER_02 7:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 7:16

Um, and so leading up to the election, obviously, you know, everybody's talking about who to vote for, yeah. Um, why you should do this, why you should do that. Yeah. And again, we were part of Rock Harbor, and Rock Arbor had taken a really specific position to just go, hey, we're not gonna do politics, we're just gonna talk to people about following Jesus and all that. And so it's like, okay, like I totally understand that.

SPEAKER_06 7:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 7:38

And and so that's what we were up to.

SPEAKER_06 7:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 7:41

I had a friend over lunch say, All right, help me out here. I have my roommate telling me what I need to be thinking, who I need to vote for. Yeah. I have my family members doing the same thing. I have colleagues at work, I have my social media feed just blowing up with how horrible this person is, how great this person is, and my church is not saying anything.

SPEAKER_05 8:01

Wow.

SPEAKER_07 8:01

And he's like, I want to know not necessarily who to vote for, right, but how can I integrate my faith into all of these conversations?

SPEAKER_00 8:10

Yes, how to think about who to vote for.

SPEAKER_07 8:13

Exactly. Yeah, and so that's how we started the merge was literally me going, I want to create a space where we're actually hopefully giving people tools, not necessarily to get to a conclusion that I'm expecting them to get to, yeah, but literally going, instead of teaching people or telling people what to think, let's teach people how to think.

SPEAKER_00 8:33

That's so good.

SPEAKER_07 8:34

And so, yeah, so we built a framework around that. And so to be able to bring about discipleship and put tools in a tool belt specifically to be able to engage in polarizing conversations and in hard topics, to be able to wrestle um with learning to listen more than just give a bunch of facts or data points or uh talking points from your particular tribe, whatever that would be, you know, whether it's politics or theology or parenting, like fill in a blank.

SPEAKER_06 9:03

Yep.

SPEAKER_07 9:04

And so we spent the first few months just going, okay, what would a framework look like? Let's tell our story, let's talk about who Jesus is, what he's like, his teachings and his ethics, and then let's talk about what to do about it. How do we apply it? And so after we built a framework over the course of a few months, we decided, okay, let's talk about some spicy stuff.

SPEAKER_03 9:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 9:27

And so back in the day, um, we called it the burn because basically I said, I want to talk about anything that Twitter is on fire about.

SPEAKER_05 9:35

Wow.

SPEAKER_07 9:35

So what's what's the hot topic on Twitter? What are you yelling about? Yeah. Let's talk about it.

SPEAKER_05 9:40

Wow.

SPEAKER_07 9:40

And to be able to talk about it again in a way of not falling into the polarizing ditches that everybody is talking past one another. But, you know, in so many ways, what we've heard for for forever is how do we have this third-way conversation that Jesus is continually inviting us into? He's confronted by religious leaders uh on all kinds of topics, whether it's theology or politics or whatever.

SPEAKER_06 10:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 10:06

And they're saying, okay, Jesus, and you know, and most of the time the writers are even saying they came to him to trap him, they came to him to set him off or whatever. And it's like, okay, is it this way or this way? And he'd usually tell a story. Yeah, or he'd question. Okay, if he is our example of what it means to be human on earth in in the best way, in the most perfect way, then let's learn from that.

SPEAKER_06 10:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 10:34

And so, yeah, so we started talking about everything. You know, so there's plenty of conversations to have. Wow. Um but yeah, so so it was kind of it was called the burn for a long time, but then um I wanted to call it something that felt a little bit more close to the discipleship aspect that I wanted it to be. Yeah, and so that's where we brought it to the merge of going, how do I take my followship of Jesus and have it intersect, have it merge into all of these conversations where everyone is just yelling at one another, talking past each other.

SPEAKER_05 11:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 11:06

We're tribed up, yeah, and I'm not interested in hearing your side.

SPEAKER_00 11:11

Yeah, yeah. It's like I think one of the things I've talked about with Ben multiple times is our culture has lost nuance. Yeah. And so it's like one person says one thing about a polarizing topic, and you immediately put them in a box. They are other, they are evil, they are bad. And I mean, I do that. Like I'm guilty of that. For sure. And it's funny, one of the things that I've been even chatting, talk about Bill Doctrine, chatting with Bill about is like, even if it's not a polarizing topic, even if it's one thing, it's like, oh, that person's not bad. I just don't have to take that part of what they're saying. Yeah. And I can still love them as a whole person.

SPEAKER_02 11:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:46

But it's so hard because I think one of the things that people would say, like, well, two things. One would be like around the dinner table, family politics, like, yeah, I know from my own, it doesn't even have to be politics, it can be anything, but from my own experience with like certain family members, it's like I might not even fully disagree with them, but because they're going so hard at it, it makes me want to shoot so far in the opposite direction. Right. That it's like actually, no, I think we're, I think we're both maybe have the same heart for the same thing, we're just seeing it differently. Yeah. And I mean, that's hard when emotions are into it. And like, and and then I think the other thing is what social media has done is it has completely polarized, and algorithms make you go deeper and deeper and deeper onto one thing and one thing. So, I mean, so I want to talk about the merge. Let's say someone is there, let's say it's pick a polarizing topic, and you've got two people who are passionately, like viscerally passionate about this topic on opposite directions. How would you talk to them? Like, what would you say?

SPEAKER_07 12:57

Yeah, so um I'll tell a story. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 13:01

How Jesus of you.

SPEAKER_07 13:02

Right.

SPEAKER_00 13:02

I love it.

SPEAKER_07 13:03

Um, I'll tell a story that um that this guy in our church has shared uh in a couple different settings that I feel like illustrate everything that I would hope for in this. Okay. So he uh he's been in life group for a long time. He had been on a business trip overseas, and so the way he tells the story, he came crashing back into this time zone, shows up at Life Group, he's just super jet-lagged, and somehow early on when they're just talking before they get to Life Group, the uh politics comes up. And he said, and I overshared my political opinions. Um, and I isolated someone else in the group who strongly disagreed with pretty much everything I said. And so he said, So I realized it after the fact, so I had to go to him and apologize. And he said, and a lot of the conversations that that we'd been having in the merge started to kind of help him think through what would it look like for me to engage this guy. So we invited him to a merge just again to be able to kind of build this framework for how they could be able to potentially have conversations moving forward. And so out of the merge, they were talking and decided, okay, let's get to a place where we can hear one another. And they already had a relationship and all that, but again, uh you know, like what you were talking about before, there are so many people that that lost relationship with people over masking or not masking or um fill in the blank, right? I mean, there's just been so many things who you voted for, yeah. And so they agreed to go to breakfast every week and just listen. And they they they could only ask questions, um, and they could only give their story because you can't argue with someone's story.

SPEAKER_05 14:55

Wow.

SPEAKER_07 14:56

And so I was talking to him about a month into this, and and they were laughing, going, Oh, I think he's still crazy.

SPEAKER_05 15:04

Stop. That's amazing.

SPEAKER_07 15:06

I respect him in new ways than I do. And he said, and I think the best part of it was going, I can stand next to him, and we can both worship our faces off in church. And I believe him.

SPEAKER_05 15:21

Wow. And wow.

SPEAKER_07 15:23

And I think that's been the thing that that I've loved about the merge is is we're able to see people get to a place where they don't have to believe the hype that if you're one thing, then you're everything. Yeah, and all these zero-sum conversations that we're in, it's like if you're not a hundred percent with me, then you're a hundred percent against me. Yeah, it's not even that that that we just see it differently, it's like all of a sudden we're in opposition to the body. You're the enemy, yeah. Yeah, and so yeah, so I I I love that story of him with Squin. We're just gonna go to breakfast and talk.

SPEAKER_05 15:55

Wow.

SPEAKER_07 15:56

Um, we're not gonna convince each other of anything or or you know, attempt to. Um yeah. And then the other story is right after the election, the most recent election, uh presidential election, we got everybody in a room, and we had one question that we felt like would probably polarize the room because we poke the bear. That's kind of what we do. Yeah, and so the question was based on the results of the election, how confident are you in America's future? Which would, you know, polarize an entire room. Yeah, and so one to ten, um, and and put yourself on that spectrum.

SPEAKER_00 16:32

Wow.

SPEAKER_07 16:32

And then we lined everybody up on the wall, one to ten. So we outed everybody right there. And so people are looking around going, um, okay, I'm a I'm a three, and you're a nine? Are you kidding me right now? And um one of the women came, she said, I sat next to the door so that I could get out of the room as quick as possible if it started getting too much for me.

SPEAKER_05 16:54

Whoa.

SPEAKER_07 16:55

And she said through tears, I'm at an age right now where I can't lose any friends. And I've watched so many people lose friends over this kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_05 17:06

Wow.

SPEAKER_07 17:06

I want to be here, but I'm terrified.

SPEAKER_05 17:09

Wow.

SPEAKER_07 17:10

And then she was able to say by the end of the night, I cannot believe how good that was and how healing it was.

SPEAKER_05 17:18

Wow.

SPEAKER_07 17:19

Because what people started to realize is we would sit someone who was a seven with someone who was a two.

SPEAKER_05 17:25

Wow.

SPEAKER_07 17:25

So I again we we intentionally reset all the tables to put people that disagreed with one another.

SPEAKER_05 17:31

Wow.

SPEAKER_07 17:31

And what was fun to hear from them was even just based on the prompt, the way that it was worded, everybody put different definitions on it. And so as they're talking and again asking questions, not trying to prove themselves, it was like, oh, I I heard it different. And so I answered based on based on this. Yep. And they're like, oh, well, I was defining the whole thing from this word. Wow. Like that word means something really specific to me and all that. And so the more everybody got to talk around the table, they realized it's like, okay, I mean, yeah, you're a seven in that way, but you're actually more like a four. And and I think I'm actually maybe a six in some of these ways too. Yeah. And so the only way, because again, if if we just said, okay, everybody look around and and you tens, look at those ones, just just and and write a narrative. Then they're gonna write a narrative that is probably not the case. Yeah, or it's for sure not the whole story, right? And and so we've seen time and time again over the topic, fill in the blank. Like whatever it is, if we can keep people around a table, if we can keep them over a meal, if we can keep them engaged and having them be curious, ask questions, um, actually work to see, identify, and pull out the humanity in the person across from them. Yeah, um yeah, we may still have a disagreement, but it may not be as extreme as we think. And even if it is, then I'm still gonna not flatten you into this issue and just make your whole uh story about this one thing.

SPEAKER_00 19:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 19:04

So it's been it's been so amazing.

SPEAKER_00 19:07

I mean, that is so inspiring. And it's like bringing the empathy and the humanity back to a person, I feel like, changes everything. Yeah, and it's huge.

SPEAKER_07 19:16

Yeah. And we we probably don't well, we don't have time to get into this, but the neuroscience behind all this is phenomenally fascinating. Wow. Like it's it's out of control. So the reason we start with story is because the way that our brains are built, if we start with data, and facts, and you were talking about this when you're like, if if a family member is coming hard, then then I'm immediately just gonna come hard the other way.

SPEAKER_02 19:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 19:39

So that's the base part of your brain that's actually been developed for fight, flight, freeze, or fawn. Okay. And so when we get data points, there's all this research that says there are these physiological pieces that we actually can't do anything about that close our peripheral vision, that actually rush blood to our skin so that we get body armor, our respiration rate, our blood pressure, they all go up. And it's because we feel attacked. And yes. And the research now shows that if someone brings to you facts that feel either contradictory to what you believe, or especially if it's confronting something that you hold as a non-negotiable value, then it's the same as someone pointing a gun at you.

SPEAKER_00 20:29

That is so fascinating and makes all the sense in the world.

SPEAKER_07 20:34

Right.

SPEAKER_00 20:34

Because I have things where even in my own life right now, I'm feeling that in certain areas. And I literally told Ben last night I was like, I feel viscerally sick. And like when I read this text, I got lightheaded. Like I literally felt my head go back. And it's that's crazy.

SPEAKER_07 20:51

And you can't do anything about it. Like that's the other piece, too. Um, and again, the the research is wild. The logic part of your brain takes five times longer to engage than this part of your brain.

SPEAKER_05 21:01

No way.

SPEAKER_07 21:02

But it's survival, okay? Because it's like, you know, like if you're about to step into traffic and you see a car coming, you can't logic, hmm, that's a car, it's made of metal, I'm made of skin. It's coming at this rate of speed, which means you you can't do all that math, right? Right. But you can go, I gotta get out of the way.

SPEAKER_00 21:21

Whoa. So it's actually a gift from God.

SPEAKER_07 21:22

So 100%. The way he designed us. Yes, absolutely. Yeah. But what has happened or what happens, I mean, this is humanity's story for as long as it is. When we're confronted in that way, we immediately move to this spot. Our logic logic shuts down, yeah. Like all the other parts of our brain go dark.

SPEAKER_05 21:40

Wow.

SPEAKER_07 21:40

Except for this part, because it's trying to keep us safe.

SPEAKER_05 21:44

Wow.

SPEAKER_07 21:44

So all of a sudden, you have two people that have the rest of their brain turned off.

SPEAKER_00 21:49

This is so crazy. Yes.

SPEAKER_07 21:51

And so they can they cannot hear one another. Yeah. And so what they'll do is keep spouting data points, and all it does is keep you in this. Fight, flight, freeze, fawn mode. Okay. So the reason we start with story is based out of neuroscience. Because what happens is when you tell a story, a different part of your brain lights up. Okay. And it's left and right hemisphere because you're remembering things that are data points, but they are also all associated with an emotion. Okay. And so we start every conversation with one question. How did you come to believe what you believe about this particular topic?

SPEAKER_05 22:29

Wow.

SPEAKER_07 22:29

And everybody starts with a story because we we're not like, what facts do you know? No, yeah. Like any of that kind of stuff. It's like, tell a story. So then it gets weirder or or more amazing. It sets in process an entirely different set of chemical reactions inside your body that actually make you want to connect. And then your body emits a pheromone that everybody else can smell at a subconscious level that's actually built for connection. And so now all of a sudden, my body is giving, I want to connect with you. And as you're listening to that story, your body is doing the exact same thing inwardly. And so then when you tell your story, there's fundamental connections made. And so that's where I'm saying God is incredible to build all of these human systems into us because we're made for connection. We're made for connection with Him, we're made for connection with creation, and we're made for connection with one another.

unknown 23:26

Wow.

SPEAKER_07 23:26

And so, excuse me. So so yeah, so that's where we start.

SPEAKER_00 23:31

I am mind-blown right now, and I think that people listening will be too, because this is not, I've never heard it talked about this way. And it makes all the sense in the world.

SPEAKER_03 23:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:44

Wow. Okay, so that's where you start.

SPEAKER_07 23:47

Yeah. And so and you know, and it and again, these are the tools that we're that we're encouraging people. It's like, hey, when you're at Thanksgiving and that uncle that nobody wants to talk to because he is gonna come so hard about whatever, right? Um, how did you come to believe so strongly about this?

SPEAKER_00 24:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 24:09

Is at least a way to start.

SPEAKER_00 24:10

A way to start.

SPEAKER_07 24:11

Yeah. Now, now he may not be interested in having any kind of conversation. He may be actually looking for a fight. Yeah. And so we spend a lot of time talking about boundaries and going, hey, we're we're not gonna be abused. And there has to be a willingness on both parties to be able to engage in this way.

SPEAKER_00 24:26

Yes.

SPEAKER_07 24:26

Um yeah, if you can come to the table, wow, at least even in a semi-good faith effort, you get a chance.

SPEAKER_00 24:34

Wow.

SPEAKER_07 24:34

Yeah. So go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 24:36

Well, okay, so can you talk a little bit about the boundaries thing? Because I think everybody has the person in their life where it's like, okay, we're gonna try this, but I mean, I have tried and failed multiple times. Like, because then it's like, oh, I start I start with really good intentions, like I want to hear them out, and then they say one thing, and now I know what's happening in my body. Yep. And I just am like, right. What would you like? What advice would you give when, like, okay, how do I like flag someone who's like, oh, okay, they're clearly not going to be able to have a civilized conversation or be willing to listen.

SPEAKER_07 25:08

Yeah, yeah. Um calling a pause is always gonna be a good idea. So even saying out loud, hey, I can film myself kind of kind of amping up right now. Yeah, I know that that is not gonna help me have a good conversation right now. And again, I think, and and again, a lot of the boundary conversations in even de-escalating a situation is not telling them all the things they're doing wrong, right? But talking about impact. And you know, we spend a lot of time going uh intent versus impact, right? Um, someone says something that triggers someone else, yeah, and they go, hey, that was triggering, and you go, Well, I didn't mean for it to be, and they're like, Well, but it was. Right, you know, right, right. I know you didn't maybe intend for it, but I'm just telling you, there is a reality that I need to invite you into right now. So we can do that and we can say, Hey, I'm feeling amped up. Um, can we either take a break or can we pick this up another time?

SPEAKER_05 26:07

Wow.

SPEAKER_07 26:08

Depending on you know, the level of situation, um, the trust that you have with that person. Yeah, trust is really important, these conversations. Um, so so yeah, so those are some of the ways initially. Um, if if you could take a pause and get back into the conversation, if they haven't been to the merge or if they don't know a lot of this stuff, I think you can even just say, um, I would love to hear your story and and and speak about your story. And would it be okay if I can ask a few questions along the way for clarification? Not not to challenge you, but just go, here's what I heard you say.

SPEAKER_05 26:45

Yep.

SPEAKER_07 26:45

Is that what you said? You know, I mean, think about like communication skills that you learn in premarital counseling, okay. Yes, I was just thinking about my premarital Bill.

SPEAKER_00 26:54

Once again, I feel like I mentioned Bill on every podcast.

SPEAKER_03 26:56

You should.

SPEAKER_00 26:57

Yeah, he's the best. Um, he wrote out this whole thing for us on the sender, the receiver, and the noise in between of communication, right? It's like the sender could say one thing, but noise can be physical noise. I just straight up didn't hear you right. It could be emotional noise, baggage that you're carrying on and putting on to what they're saying. I think it could be anything. And so, yeah, I'm literally thinking about that as you're talking.

SPEAKER_07 27:22

Yeah. Yeah. And so, I mean, I think that all of these are helpful ways to set boundaries by by framing rules of engagement. Okay. Because again, that's if we don't have a willing participant in doing this, yeah, then then don't don't put yourself through that. Yeah. And I've had to do that before to just go, I'm not, I'm not sure if you're interested in hearing my perspective at all.

SPEAKER_06 27:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 27:48

I feel like you're just trying to convince me.

SPEAKER_06 27:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 27:52

And I don't want to be your project.

SPEAKER_06 27:54

Yeah. Yeah. You know? Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 27:56

I don't I don't want to be one of your one of your disciples.

SPEAKER_01 27:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 27:59

Like, if you're not interested in hearing what I'm trying to say or feel or think, then I don't know if this is going to be beneficial.

SPEAKER_06 28:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 28:08

And again, doing that, there's a couple ways to do this, right? There's one of doing it in relationship. And I think another boundary is to go, I value this friendship more than I value us sorting this out.

SPEAKER_05 28:24

Wow. That's so good.

SPEAKER_07 28:26

Or if if you don't have a lot of relational connectivity with this person, a lot of equity kind of built into this conversation, then yeah, you can walk away a lot quicker. And not because that person's less valuable, but because the the chance for it to go sideways um is a lot higher.

SPEAKER_05 28:45

Really high.

SPEAKER_07 28:45

Yeah. So here's the deal. I um one of my very best friends, we get together and we we do this walk that ends up being about an hour and a half long. We think so much alike as far as just the way we think. And so on our walks, it's literally theology, parenting, economics. Like, like we cover, we just talk, right? And so, what are we reading right now? You know, what are we thinking about right now? What was hard last week or whatever? And um what we found out is that we can't talk about politics at all. Um and he is one of my best friends, and we fundamentally disagree on almost everything.

SPEAKER_05 29:26

Wow.

SPEAKER_07 29:27

Um, and it's not, and it's not that um, yeah, it's not that we can't talk about it, but when we have, we are both so passionate that we've realized that our friendship is way more important than than what we think about politics. Yeah, um, because he was he was like we we traded rants, you know, with this. And again, like and I tell people all the time, I'm saying this stuff, but I'm a learner too. Like I screw up all the time with this stuff.

SPEAKER_00 29:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 29:59

And so I'm like passion standing about a thing, and then he's passionate standing back.

SPEAKER_00 30:03

And then you're both just like right, and then we're riled up. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 30:07

Um, but I got to the end um of our time, and he had said a bunch of stuff, and I said, Is it in your framework of creativity to think that someone could think differently than you about almost all this stuff? And he said, No, it's not.

SPEAKER_05 30:27

Wow.

SPEAKER_07 30:27

And I was like, okay, I don't think we need we can talk about this. Yeah, you know, because again, I I love this guy so much, and I'm not willing to throw that away because of politics. Right. And so I think that's that's the other piece, and that's so that's a boundary that we've set for the sake of relationship. And so I think there's a lot of boundaries that we have to think through.

SPEAKER_00 30:47

Yes, and that relationship is safe. The fact that you can say, one of my best friends in the world fundamentally disagrees with me on everything politically, and we still get together all the time. He's one of my best friends, we have deep conversations, he helps me grow, all these things. It's like to know like that is okay. Yeah, and that is good.

SPEAKER_03 31:09

It's possible.

SPEAKER_00 31:10

And it's possible, yeah. And it's like, I think that we just as a culture have lost our ability to do that.

SPEAKER_03 31:18

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:19

And it's so hard.

SPEAKER_07 31:21

Yeah. Uh can I pivot the conversation?

SPEAKER_00 31:24

Yes, let's go.

SPEAKER_07 31:25

So I was having a conversation with a woman um, I guess it was yesterday, and we were talking specifically about the role of the church in these conversations. And one of the things that I am passionate about with the merge is that this is a discipleship tool. I am I am not interested in it only being a peacemaking mechanism where we can hack the other person's brain and we can hack our own brain, and we can get to a place where we're cool with each other and all that stuff. Um, what I'm passionate about is followers of Jesus showcasing what Jesus was like on earth and what the kingdom of God is. This place of flourishing, this place of wholeness, of shalom. And uh the most powerful thing to me, because again, my best friend is a follower of Jesus and a really good one. Which, you know, again, it's like he would say the same of me, and we really disagree politically. Yeah, which is there are plenty of people that are saying, if you're on this team, uh then you're whatever, yeah. Right?

SPEAKER_06 32:32

Yep.

SPEAKER_07 32:33

And so the thing for me that I always come back to is the merge gets to be a space where we truly can be more formed into the image and likeness of Jesus through conversations that are hard. It's an opportunity for us to learn, it's an opportunity for us to grow. The first work of a peacemaker is the inward work. You know, Jesus, Jesus talks really specifically about making sure that the plank in your own eye is taken care of before you look at the speck in someone else's eye.

SPEAKER_05 33:06

Wow.

SPEAKER_07 33:06

And so as we're doing the deep work of peacemaking, as we're doing the deep work of sitting across the table from someone with whom we disagree, we have to check ourselves. Humility wins every time.

SPEAKER_05 33:19

Wow. Wow.

SPEAKER_07 33:20

And so all of a sudden, we get to showcase a completely different reality of what it means to be a community, of what it means to be a group of people that get together on a regular basis, if that's weekly at church or whatever the case would be, that supersedes any other group that is around some type of affinity.

SPEAKER_06 33:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 33:41

Okay. Your rock climbing group, you guys don't have to talk about that stuff because you know you just rock climb.

SPEAKER_04 33:47

Right.

SPEAKER_07 33:47

Um, or or fill in the blank with whatever it could be. But that followers of Jesus can disagree about any number of things and still worship next to one another, showcases that we have Christ at the center and we have Christ preeminent, and that what holds us together is not a set of ideologies, but it's the Holy Spirit.

SPEAKER_06 34:09

Yep. So good.

SPEAKER_07 34:11

We we get the opportunity to evangelize by getting together and disagreeing and recognizing that our disagreements are always subservient to our fellowship of Jesus.

SPEAKER_00 34:25

Yeah. And I think that's where things go sideways, is when the order is in the wrong.

SPEAKER_07 34:29

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 34:30

I mean, it's once again a Bill thing, first button, first hole situation. Yep. If you're buttoning up, I literally misbut my shirt this morning and I looked at Ben and I was like, first button, first hole.

SPEAKER_02 34:38

Here we go.

SPEAKER_00 34:38

And I so if you are listening and you don't know this, um, one of our mentors, Bill, talks about when you're buttoning up a shirt, if you get the first button in the first hole, the rest of the shirt is gonna be easy to button.

SPEAKER_02 34:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:50

But if you put the first button in the second hole, or vice versa, the rest of the shirt's gonna be, it's gonna be chaos. Yeah. Pure chaos trying to get dressed. Right. It's like we can get the first button in the first hole here. Jesus is Lord, and that is the most important, like fundamental truth in our life.

SPEAKER_04 35:04

That's it.

SPEAKER_00 35:04

Everything else can be seen through that lens and the lens of his gospel and his words. Because that's the book of Acts. People of all different cultures, all different past religions, non-religions, like languages, everything coming together around a table. And they had arguments, they had disagreements, and it was like, Yeah, hey, who was Jesus and what did he say?

SPEAKER_03 35:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:26

So, oh my gosh, that's so good. I feel like I'm so much is running through my head right now. I'm learning so much from you. So, can we talk a little bit about one thing that you and I were talking about before we started recording was the Sermon on the Mount.

SPEAKER_01 35:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:39

And how often I think our need to be right or feel right comes up in all of these conversations. And Jesus has some things to say about that in the Sermon on the Mount, specifically around, turn the other cheek, specifically around if someone sues you for your cloak or your shirt, give them your cloak.

SPEAKER_06 35:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:58

Specifically around all of those things. And one important thing that you said was it's not about being taken advantage of because people look at you like I was wronged, or I, and and so to people misunderstand, I think we misunderstand as a culture and as Christians that what Jesus means by turn the other cheek and all those things. Can you say a little bit about that?

SPEAKER_07 36:22

Tell me if this answers the question. Okay there is a fundamental difference between peacemaking and peacekeeping. That's good. Peacekeeping has in mind the status quo. Peacemaking has in mind flourishing, has in mind wholeness. It's like let's take the broken and dislocated parts of our relationship of the world, fill it in with whatever, right? And let's work towards bringing it back to wholeness, bringing it back to shalom. The garden to the to the to the throne room, right? The the scope and scale of the narrative of the of the Bible. And I feel like anytime that we get to pick humility, anytime that we get to pick, taking the lower spot, which Jesus, I mean, his incarnation, I mean, like fill in the blank, it's all the stuff, right? It's it's you know, it's everything from him coming to earth and putting on skin and debasing himself from the glory of heaven, um, to at the very end of his ministry, tying a towel around his waist, getting low, performing a servant's role with his disciples, and going, I'm showing you what it's like to be a leader. I'm showing you what it's like to be the savior of the world. Um, I'm getting ready to die. I'm gonna, I'm gonna debase myself to death to the ridicule and the scorn and the shame of all that's going on, right? And so any time that we get an opportunity to go low, which which he is explicit with all through the Sermon on the Mount, is an opportunity for us to be like Jesus. But we have to pick it because there are plenty of times where people are taken advantage of or abused. Yes, and that's not what we're talking about at all. And again, this goes back to the boundary conversation, right? Um there is a big difference between choosing to go low and and and serve versus I'm going to choose to put myself in a place where I can be abused.

SPEAKER_06 38:29

Yeah. You know? Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 38:31

Um, yeah, and so I I feel like what Jesus wants to see done in his teaching of the Sermon on the Mount and in the rest of his teachings and in the rest of his life and his ethic is there's an empire that tells you this is what it means to be in the empire. It's not blessed are the poor in spirit, it's it's blessed are the bold.

SPEAKER_06 38:59

Right?

SPEAKER_07 38:59

The empire would say, would say strength.

SPEAKER_06 39:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 39:02

Right? Jesus would say strength through weakness. That's what Paul says.

SPEAKER_00 39:07

Gentleness.

SPEAKER_07 39:09

The the the empire would say, Blessed are the warmongers, for they will conquer the earth. But Jesus comes back to go, blessed are the peacemakers, because they're going to be called children of God. Wow.

SPEAKER_05 39:22

Wow.

SPEAKER_07 39:23

And so I feel like there are all of these moments where whether it's um talking about finances, yeah, whether it's talking about your enemy.

SPEAKER_06 39:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 39:36

Again, like the Empire would say, crush your enemies.

SPEAKER_06 39:41

Yep.

SPEAKER_07 39:41

Lord it over them.

SPEAKER_06 39:43

Yep.

SPEAKER_07 39:44

And Jesus says, No, pray for them.

unknown 39:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 39:48

And bless them. No, it's not just like, because I think a lot of times what we want to do is we want to stop at the pray, right? Yep. And it's like, okay, Jesus, I'm gonna pray for him. Fix them, God. Like they are so screwed up.

SPEAKER_00 39:59

Right, right.

SPEAKER_07 40:00

They're the worst.

SPEAKER_00 40:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 40:01

Fix them.

SPEAKER_00 40:02

Yeah, like, okay, great. I prayed for them.

SPEAKER_07 40:04

Right. But can we have a Holy Spirit-led imagination to pray the prayer, God, this person is ultimately against me, at least the way that I see it and the way that they've even said it.

SPEAKER_01 40:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 40:21

Would you bless them today? Would you bless them with your presence?

SPEAKER_00 40:25

Yep.

SPEAKER_07 40:26

Would you actually bless them with flourishing?

SPEAKER_00 40:28

Yep. And sometimes I think it takes saying it out loud, even if you don't agree with it. Like sometimes it literally takes, like I literally had to say this to someone directly last night. I bless you.

SPEAKER_07 40:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:42

It physically hurt. Like it physically hurt, but it did something in my heart and my soul and my mind.

SPEAKER_04 40:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:50

Of like, okay, this is the way of Jesus. And I don't say that to say, like, oh, I'm some martyr, but I'm just saying it's hard. And it's like, I think, I think too, I remember doing a word study on when Jesus says, don't resist evil with evil, right? He's not saying, okay, so be a doormat and let someone just slap you on the cheeks both sides. That word resist actually what it should be translated as resist in kind. In other words, don't do the same thing that they're doing to you. It's not it's not an eye for an eye anymore. No. It's how can you still stand and remain in your dignity while also not just vengeance, vengeance, vengeance, getting back at them, taking from them what they took from you.

SPEAKER_07 41:36

Well, and and we're back to our justice word, right? You know, justice is the Lord's, it's not ours to dole out. But thank God God has justice, uh He has doled out justice.

SPEAKER_05 41:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 41:48

Right? And and even going back to those two words, right? Um, Jesus becomes the full embodiment of God's justice because he does pay the penalty. There, there were there were wrongs that had to be that had to be penalized and paid for. Jesus takes it on himself on the cross and says, I'm willing to pay the penalty for all of the wrongs that have been done in all of humankind.

SPEAKER_05 42:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 42:16

And then with his resurrection, he invites us into the restoration. He invites us into the resurrection parade that we get to celebrate in heaven, we get to be redeemed. And so there is this make them pay, and Jesus says, I'm gonna take the payment.

SPEAKER_06 42:33

Right.

SPEAKER_07 42:34

And I'm gonna make them whole.

SPEAKER_06 42:35

Right.

SPEAKER_07 42:36

And so all of God's justice is found in Jesus and it's found in Jesus on the cross. It's really incredible.

SPEAKER_00 42:42

It is, and I think if we can even like talk about that in the context of forgiveness and unforgiveness, something I struggled with for a long time, which I really had to confront because I ended up preaching on unforgiveness a couple months ago, is when Jesus says, if you don't forgive, your heavenly father won't forgive you. And I think if you read that as on the surface or take it out of the context of the gospel, it's like, well, that's pretty messed up. I thought, I thought grace was free. Right. I thought Jesus died for my sins. And it's it's really easy for us to understand our debt being paid when it pertains to us. Really hard to understand that the person who's wounded you're debt has also been paid.

SPEAKER_01 43:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:24

And I think what I had come to learn in once again, process with Bill, was Jesus isn't saying like grace isn't free. He's saying if you don't forgive, then you don't even understand the gospel at all. You're not even positioned in a place to receive it because you're so worried about unforgiveness. It's like if you you don't even understand what I've done, if you can't forgive your enemy or someone who's wounded you. And I remember you preached a message one time, and at the very end, you asked the question Who in your life would you be unwilling to serve communion for? I think that was how you, or you can correct me if that's how you worded it. Rocked me. Because I like to think that I'm like, oh, I'm living the Sermon on the Mount. I would serve communion to anyone. But two people immediately came to mind. Wow. And it was like physically hard for me to even imagine serving them communion. Can we talk about that? Like what made you ask that question? How has that looked like it? What does that look like in your own life?

SPEAKER_07 44:28

And well, I mean, yeah, there's there's lots of there's lots of pieces to that. Um I've had to choose forgiveness as well. I you know, I think most of us have. And um yeah, and and by the the power of the Holy Spirit um was able to forgive. And then I had to pick it again the next day. And and now we're back to um the empire versus the kingdom of heaven. Because the empire would say, and and you even said this a minute ago, that we're gonna be a doormat, that that because they don't deserve it, if it's given to them, then we're being taken advantage of in some way, and they won't learn their lesson. Right. Yeah, justice won't be served.

SPEAKER_00 45:27

That's and that's the hard part, I think.

SPEAKER_07 45:29

Gosh.

SPEAKER_00 45:30

And what we're really dealing with right now in our life with someone is like, well, if we end up going and doing what Jesus, we feel Jesus is asking us to do, God, they're just gonna keep repeating the same cycle.

SPEAKER_04 45:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:42

And they're never gonna learn their lesson. And God's like, don't worry about them learning their lesson. Worry about what I'm doing in you.

SPEAKER_07 45:48

Yeah. So, okay, the pause on the Okay. So there's um, so I just read something a couple days ago. There's some new research that's come out specifically about Gen Z and younger. Prior to part of these generations, there's been a lot of conversations specifically about why do bad things happen to good people.

SPEAKER_04 46:10

Okay.

SPEAKER_07 46:10

And and honestly, that's my fundamental like, I do not understand God. I this is so hard for me. Yeah. Um, I just don't get it.

SPEAKER_01 46:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 46:19

And um, for a lot of people, you know, that that maybe even holds him up from faith of going, I can't trust a God who would like let this happen to this person or I just had this conversation. My family member or whatever.

SPEAKER_05 46:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 46:33

But there's some interesting research that's coming out now where these younger generations have actually flipped it. And so instead of why do bad things happen to good people, they're asking the question, why don't bad things happen to bad people?

SPEAKER_00 46:46

Why it's why do the wicked prosper?

SPEAKER_07 46:48

Straight up. And again, this is an ancient question, but it's being revised, and I think a lot of it, you know, even just has to do with with the state of affairs in our society right now, you know? And this is this is not specific to America. I mean, my goodness, look around the world. Yes, and so many people are going, there's some really bad actors. Why are they not just getting it?

SPEAKER_06 47:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 47:09

And not only are they not getting it, it seems like they're flourishing.

SPEAKER_06 47:13

Yes.

SPEAKER_07 47:14

It seems like they have a lot of money, it seems like they have a lot of influence.

SPEAKER_00 47:18

It seems like it seems like they're getting everything they want.

SPEAKER_07 47:20

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00 47:21

Or it's like, especially, again, not to bring make keep making this so personal, but like we've been actively playing for something, and now this person who's wounded us got exactly what we wanted.

SPEAKER_07 47:31

And it's like it's not fair. It's not fair, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:35

And Jesus is like, you know what would have been fair?

SPEAKER_07 47:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:41

All of you on the cross.

SPEAKER_07 47:42

Yeah. And so all of a sudden, there is a way, and and I love thinking about communion because I don't understand it at all.

SPEAKER_01 47:52

Yeah. And that's what makes it so special to me.

SPEAKER_07 47:55

I grew up in a very uh in a very strict environment, uh, religiously speaking, where it was only a symbol and only a symbol. And there wasn't much else going on other than it was talking about a thing from the past. Yeah. And we need to be really careful how we take it and investigate ourselves so that we don't take it wrong and like die. You know, where Paul talks about.

SPEAKER_02 48:14

Totally.

SPEAKER_07 48:15

And so and so since then I've moved to more position of just going, I don't know, it's awesome.

SPEAKER_06 48:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 48:22

I have no idea what happens um cosmically when we are both taking and receiving communion and also giving it. I I'm not a transubstantiationist, and so I don't believe that it turns into the literal blood of Jesus and the literal body of Jesus, but I gotta believe there's more going on.

SPEAKER_04 48:46

Okay?

SPEAKER_07 48:46

And so, and so one of the reformers actually talks about communion and talks about it as a means of grace, that there's this cosmic reality that happens when we do this, where we're actually in a very unique and specific way receiving God's grace anew.

SPEAKER_00 49:04

And so part of what I was thinking about when I bring up the question if we come to the Lord's table and if everyone's invited, you prepare a table for me in the presence of my enemies.

SPEAKER_07 49:17

Regardless of circumstance, regardless of any of these pieces, if God has invited everyone to the table, for one, who are we denying someone the meal? Yeah, but then for two, there is really this way where to give communion, we get to go I pick you. Yeah, I pick grace, yeah, I pick forgiveness, I pick your flourishing. Yeah, and so and so the table, the table's been a metaphor for a long time, right?

SPEAKER_04 49:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 49:51

Um but I think that that's another way that we get to think about it, is especially with those who we have determined aren't fit for the male.

SPEAKER_00 50:05

It's like when you say it plainly, it's like it's icky. But then when you feel it, you're like, yeah, no, that sounds about right. Like, I remember processing it with chat after because that question just rocked me for like three weeks. And I was talking to chat about it, and I was like, Well, this person, like, I I just I and he goes, Don't think they deserve it? And I'm like, Yeah, they don't deserve it. He goes, Well, neither do you. And then I was like, chat in the table on my left. No, but for real though. And then it was just like, and it goes back to if you don't forgive, your heavenly father won't forgive you. It's not about this for that. It's about, oh, you don't even you're not even thinking about the kingdom in the right way.

SPEAKER_04 50:45

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 50:47

Oh grace is so much bigger than we have the capacity to understand. And I feel like these cosmic moments that we get um with sharing a meal with someone, with with with the the giving and the receiving of communion, they get to be these moments where um are you familiar with thin spaces? Like, like, like this idea that there are these places, and sometimes it's geographic and sometimes it's relational, where the distance between our human reality and the eternal, the spiritual, the heaven reality is as thin as it can possibly be.

SPEAKER_05 51:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 51:33

And I feel like that that those are opportunities for us to have these thin space moments.

SPEAKER_03 51:38

Wow.

SPEAKER_07 51:39

And oh my gosh, some of the most impactful moments in ministry and these thin place spaces that I've been in have been when I'm working with um vulnerable groups or with someone that I'm having a hard time with.

SPEAKER_06 52:01

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 52:03

Because there's a way where there's so much intentionality that we have to do on our part to be able to stay in that conversation, to stay engaged.

SPEAKER_06 52:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 52:14

I get to choose to pick up my cross, die to myself, recognize that grace is for all of us, that I need it first. And if I can do those things and I've got a chance to offer it to a sister or a brother with a recognition of their humanity, with a recognition of their dignity, with a recognition that they are dearly loved, sons and daughters of the High King, just like I am.

SPEAKER_06 52:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 52:44

I remember um so I went to a civil rights museum um in Alabama, and they throughout the exhibit, they start with um the abduction and enslavement of West Africans, and they walk the the museum walks all through the story of the African American experience all the way up to mass incarceration in the 1980s. And so at every point there there are these different spaces and exhibits. And we got to we got to a place um where they're showcasing um lynchings, and that feels even weird to say that, but but it was like we want you to understand more about what it was like. And they have an image, uh, a picture that was taken um at a lynching. And it was Sunday afternoon right after church, and so all these Christians went to church and they're still dressed in their Sunday best. They had brought a picnic because when church was over, they went out to watch this black man be hanged. And so the picture, the the image that was taken is in in the background, there's this man that's hung. Um, and then in the foreground, there are men, women, children having a really nice picnic, and they're all smiling for the camera. And you want to talk about a visceral visceral reaction, um, an unsettledness, a all of it, right? Yeah, and um and sorry. The Holy Spirit met me in that moment because it was so easy for me to see them as them, to see them as the enemy, to see them as wrong in every way, and to put all of what truly was wrong and couple it with making them wrong, their identity, to flatten them out. And the Holy Spirit met me and said, Are you willing to consider that they're my image bearers? Are you willing to consider that I actually died for them too? Are you willing to consider that they're forgiven? And and it and I spent the rest of the exhibit trying to process through that. Um and then getting to the place where I'm like, God, I hope so.

SPEAKER_05 55:14

Wow, wow.

SPEAKER_07 55:15

And I don't know.

SPEAKER_05 55:16

Wow, wow. So my gosh.

SPEAKER_07 55:20

And and I mean, obviously that's an extreme example, but um, yeah, man, when we have that coworker, that is just you everybody and everybody in the office knows.

SPEAKER_00 55:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 55:32

And that's the thing, it's like, no, no, no, they're actually wrong.

SPEAKER_00 55:36

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_07 55:37

We're not even talking about like, well, then maybe they're just misguided. It's like, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:40

No, they're wrong.

SPEAKER_07 55:41

They're they're wrong and they're just mean.

SPEAKER_00 55:42

Yes.

SPEAKER_07 55:43

Um, you know, yeah, but still picking it.

SPEAKER_00 55:48

Yep. And I think that's what's hard. I think two things I want to say off of that. One is I find in me, and this is what I'm real time working on, is when I see injustice or I see, I feel this need to let everybody know and make sure everybody knows how wrong this situation was. Like, literally, like, yeah. And I remember Jesus just telling me, like, do is is the fact that I understand you enough? Like, is the fact that I see it enough? Can you trust that I'm working all things together?

SPEAKER_04 56:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 56:24

And that's hard because we want when we see, when we feel something like you want everyone in the office to know, right? Don't trust that person, look out for that person. And it's Jesus who's like, hey, I see it. Can you trust me with it? And I think that that's something that is really personally hard for me. Um the other thing I want to touch on is when it comes to forgiveness, unforgiveness, I think oftentimes we assume if I forgive this person, it means I have to um it's saying what they did wasn't wrong, yeah, or it's I have to step back into relationship with them. And it's not. And so I'd love to talk a little bit about like, because I have my own, I have people that I've had to forgive and I want to stay in relationship with them. And I because the the relationship is healthy and it's it is, and God can bring it back to flourishing once forgiveness takes place. Yeah. Now there are situations where there's abuse, where there is just damage that is so far horrific or gone that it would not be healthy to step back in. Right. And I think that's where people get confused. It's like, well, if I forgive this person who abused me, does that mean I have to be friends with them again? I mean, what would you say to someone who's like, Brian, like, how do I forgive my abusive father or mother? Yeah. Or I had this, you know, toxic friend that it's not healthy for me that but how if I forgive them, does that mean that everything they did they did was okay?

SPEAKER_07 57:57

Yeah. Well, no, right? Um this is one of those where it this will feel like a pass-off answer, but I believe it with everything in me. Staying connected to the Holy Spirit and asking for wisdom at every step along the way, doing it with community. These are the ways that you start to answer some of these questions. And we have to make sure is that you know, you're not you're not stacking your communal deck with a bunch of people that are just on your side.

SPEAKER_00 58:33

Totally.

SPEAKER_07 58:33

Um but you do want advocates.

SPEAKER_00 58:37

Yes.

SPEAKER_07 58:37

And then we have the Holy Spirit who is our ultimate advocate. And if we're staying in conversation and in relationship with the Lord and with people that we trust to advocate for us and also tell us the truth. Because those aren't mutually exclusive.

SPEAKER_05 58:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 58:56

Then I then I think a lot of those conversations can get you to places where uh you're in an environment for some of those things to happen. So one of the things that I that I talk a lot about with even just um our ministries and kind of what we're doing is I feel like our job is not to convince people stuff, our job is not to hype Jesus, our job is not to like that's not what we're up to. What we get to be as shepherds is we get to bring sheep along and put them in proximity to Jesus through the power of the Holy Spirit for Him to do the work. And so I think that if we're doing those things, if we're if we're in come in, if we're in community, if if we're staying in conversation through prayer with the Lord and we're staying in scripture and we're doing all these things, then we're going to get in proximity to be able to get some of these answers. There are so many times where forgiveness um gets to be, and I'd say thankfully, our remedy. You know, I mean, because you know, the the classic, the classic line with unforgiveness is I'm drinking poison hoping the other person dies. And when we get to a place of forgiveness, we're able to drink in God's goodness, we're able to drink in healing and restoration and wholeness. So this person I was talking about um before, um who I hated. God met me in a really powerful moment, and it's a long story, but basically, um in an instant, um, I forgave him. And that is not everybody's story. Wow, um, this impacted our family, yeah, and it took my wife about seven years.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:00:47

Okay.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:00:48

And I would say we both did it correctly. Yes. Whatever correctly even means.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:52

Right.

SPEAKER_07 1:00:52

Okay. Right. But we we both had our journey, and our journeys were our journeys. And I feel like that they were both God honoring. Let me say it that way. Yep. Um, yeah, and so and so mine happened instantly and completely.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:01:09

But this person um lived somewhere else, and so it wasn't even like we had to be in a relationship. And so I was like, this is untested, but I'm pretty sure it's okay.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:18

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:01:19

Um, and I ended up uh back in the town where he lived, and he found out that I was there. And so this is this is about a year and a half, two years after everything had happened. And he said, Hey, can we go to coffee? And I'm like, absolutely, because I feel like this is gonna be when he's gonna go, I'm so sorry. I screwed up your life, like all these things, right? That's that's how I'm kind of walking in going, right? All right, say your stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:46

And that's when forgiveness feels good. Right, like they've admitted what they've done.

SPEAKER_07 1:01:50

Straight up, yeah. And so, and so we sit down, um, and his first question to me is, How much do you hate me?

SPEAKER_05 1:01:59

Whoa.

SPEAKER_07 1:02:00

And again, we haven't talked in somewhere close to two years.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:04

Wow.

SPEAKER_07 1:02:04

And and I and I was able to say, I don't hate you, I forgive you and I love you.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:10

Wow.

SPEAKER_07 1:02:11

And for the next hour, he gave reasons and explained why he did all the things that he did, and he never said he was sorry.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:23

That's so tough.

SPEAKER_07 1:02:24

And I got up and left the coffee and got in the car and just prayed and said, God, you did it.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:32

Yeah, wow.

SPEAKER_07 1:02:34

Because it it literally, you know, then it then it became tested.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:02:38

Um, I never got an apology and I didn't need it.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:42

Yep. Because forgiveness isn't about the other person, yeah. It's about us and our hearts and being freed, and we're not holding their debt against, like, they don't owe me anything because Jesus paid the debt.

SPEAKER_07 1:02:56

That's brand. Yeah, I love it.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:57

And that's what's that's what's so hard. And it's like, I think there's two sides I've had to walk out unforgiveness too. I've had the very supernatural forgiveness where you're like, that was a weight immediately lifted. Yeah, that was a supernatural weight I was able to forgive, powered by the Holy Spirit. Also powered by the Holy Spirit is the I am choosing every single day to forgive this person, and I'm walking out my emotions about it for as long as it takes.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:25

Like, I think there's the emotional side and the spiritual side. You can forgive someone before the throne of God. You literally have what Ben and I do is Lord, I choose to forgive this person. I choose to get off the judgment seat, I declare that Jesus is on the judgment seat, I choose to forgive them for, and I list out all the ways they've wronged me.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:47

And I release them and I pray and I and I receive your grace for holding on to unforgiveness. Help me. And like it's like that's kind of, and I get to walk a lot of people through that because a lot of people don't know like how, how, you know, and once again, it doesn't mean you have to step back into relationship. No, it means I can still hold boundaries with this person, I can still step out of relationship, but I'm free now. Yeah, I am spiritually, emotionally free. But sometimes I've had to forgive someone, and it took me therapy, EMDR, walking out emotions, yeah. And I'm still on a journey of the emotional side of forgiveness.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:30

Absolutely. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:31

But it's all at the end of the day for our own freedom.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:34

It has nothing to do with the other person. You never even have to tell the other person I've forgiven you.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:39

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:40

You know, you don't have to interact with them ever again, but you can get to a place through walking in out of. Now I remember, I remember I prayed my very first tiny baby prayer of blessing over that person, and it took everything I had. And it wasn't even a good one.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:54

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:55

Like it was like, but but to start. And even I just want to say to those listening, like when I prayed the prayer before the throne of God, I choose to forgive this person. It took me 10 minutes to get the words out. And it might take you 10 months, but keep talking to Jesus about it. Like it doesn't have to be this thing that happens right away. As long as you don't stop talking to God about it. That's where He, that's all He cares about. I just want your heart.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:23

He can do anything with a willing heart. Like, even I remember I had to pray, God, I want to want to forgive this person. That's where I started.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:30

I literally started, I want, I, I, I want to want to, but I don't want to yet.

SPEAKER_07 1:05:35

And that's you picking it.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:36

Yes.

SPEAKER_07 1:05:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:37

He can do anything with a willing heart.

SPEAKER_07 1:05:39

Yeah. Yeah. And even as we talk about like interfacing with someone who's wronged us and and all that, to bring it back to brain science for just a second.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:48

Yes, please do.

SPEAKER_07 1:05:49

Um, I mean, it's exactly all the stuff that we talked about. If you're healed, then when you interact with this person, um The the body chemistry that's going on in you is not gonna be um the fight or flight or the freeze or the fun. Um I would say that would be a healthy place to re-engage with someone if you wanted to. And again, now it just comes back to does it make sense? Like, are do we do we like the same things? Why were we friends before? Yeah, are those conditions still true? Yeah, um, you know, but but yeah, it gets to be all of these get to be individual journeys. And they're all in different time frames, they're all at different scale.

SPEAKER_06 1:06:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:06:33

Um, and I think, man, comparison just it just it it ruined so many of these conversations because somebody hears a story like mine and they're like, oh well, I guess I'm not spiritual enough, or I don't I guess God's not big enough.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:47

Wow, you know, or whatever.

SPEAKER_07 1:06:48

And it's like, no, that was I am not prescribing that you just keep praying until like a lightning bolt hits you.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:56

Right, right, right.

SPEAKER_07 1:06:58

Um, no, not at all.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:59

And both of these stories are that's one story in your life.

SPEAKER_07 1:07:02

That's it.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:03

And I shared one story in mine. We've got millions. I have still people, I still have people I'm working on forgiving, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:09

For sure. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:10

Oh, wow. Well, thank you so much for today. Truly, it was so much fun. I feel like we could have kept talking about all this for another two hours, but I'm so grateful to have you. Thank you so much. Thanks so much. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:23

If you want to throw your question in and I can put it in before you. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:26

Oh.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:26

And then just say goodbye again.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:28

Yeah, yeah. There is one question I end every podcast with.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:31

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:31

It changes a little bit each week.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:33

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:33

But answer me this Jesus in the flesh rolls into town today, into your town.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:41

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:42

He says, Brian, I want you to take me to the best coffee shop in this county. Where do you take him?

SPEAKER_07 1:07:51

Golden Lantern Coffee.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:53

Where okay, is that on Golden Lantern?

SPEAKER_07 1:07:55

No, it's actually just down the street from here.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:58

Tell me, why? What what what do I have to go after this? Like, what is the deal?

SPEAKER_07 1:08:02

So a friend of mine works there, okay, and he loves coffee, and he knows that I love coffee. So he introduced me to the owner. The owner is kind of like a, I don't know, he's like a coffee like Yoda.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:16

Loves.

SPEAKER_07 1:08:16

And and so he he both roasts beans for several different places around here, but then he also teaches other people how to roast. He's really generous with his information and all this stuff. And he refers to it as the bean. And um, like like he's he's like that level.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:31

I love that.

SPEAKER_07 1:08:32

And um, I got invited to a cupping. Are you familiar with a cupping?

SPEAKER_05 1:08:35

No.

SPEAKER_07 1:08:36

So basically, it's like a tasting of, you know, like a wine tasting or any of that kind of stuff. Yeah. And so we have multiple cups of coffee, and he walks us through the region, the varietal, like the roasting process, like all these different things. And then you have note cards for each of them where you get to write your flavor notes and kind of all the stuff that you see on the back of a coffee box or package or whatever. Yeah. And so, so yeah, so it's it's fantastic. Wow. They have all of these wild, like he's doing a bunch of stuff now with fruit infusion. Whoa. And so he has like a passion fruit, yurgachef, like whatever, like, like it's wild.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:13

Wow.

SPEAKER_07 1:09:14

Hit it up right now.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:15

So that's you, and you would probably say, Text the owner, I'm bringing Jesus in. He wants a cupping. He wants give him the whole show.

SPEAKER_07 1:09:21

He would be stoked. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:23

Oh, I believe it. I I was talking about this with a friend the other day. I think that Jesus liked coffee.

SPEAKER_07 1:09:28

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:29

Because coffee's amazing.

SPEAKER_07 1:09:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:30

Oh.

SPEAKER_07 1:09:31

So there's you know, there's this famous uh quote from well, it's at least attributed to um to George Washington, and he said, beer is how we know that God loves us. And and I feel like that's probably true of coffee as well.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:45

I would cheat, yeah, I would insert coffee. Like literally, my Kiana.

SPEAKER_07 1:09:49

Yes. Kiafi is coffee, ki offee. Kiafi. You could be ki offee.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:53

I could be ki offee.

SPEAKER_07 1:09:54

Um, coffee is how we know that God loves us.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:57

Amen. Well, on that note, thank you so much for being here today, Brian. Thanks.

SPEAKER_07 1:10:02

It's been awesome. Literally have the best time.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:03

I think this is such rich conversation that I hope will bless and inspire so many people. So thank you. Thank you for listening to the Fragrance Podcast. We'd love for you to subscribe, like, and write a review for this episode. Fragrance is a 501c3 nonprofit ministry, and your donations are tax deductible. If you'd like to support fragrance, you can click on the link in the episode info.